Roger Volodarsky, Founder & CEO, Puffco

Thinking Outside The Bud - Roger Volodarsky

Roger Volodarsky, Founder & CEO, Puffco

Roger Volodarsky is the CEO and founder of Puffco. As a serial entrepreneur, tech-fan, and cannabis connoisseur, Roger brought together these passions to form Puffco. Their mission is to make the highest level of consumption devices, accessible, practical, and effective enough for everyone.
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[00:00:01] You're listening to Thinking Outside the Bud where we speak with entrepreneurs investors thought leaders researchers advocates and policymakers who are finding new and exciting ways for cannabis to positively impact business society and culture. And now here is your host Business Coach Bruce Eckfeldt.

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[00:01:06] Welcome, everyone. This is Thinking Outside the Bud, I'm Bruce Eckfeldt. I'm your host. And our guest today is Roger Volodarsky. And he is CEO and founder of Puffco. He's a serial entrepreneur. He's a tech fan. He's economist. And he's brought all the all these things together, all these passions together to form his company. So I'm excited about this. I'm excited to learn about Roger, about his background, about Puff Co. With that. Roger, welcome to the program. Thank you for having me, Bruce. So why don't we start with the background? So how how did you get into cannabis? What were you doing before cannabis? You know, you've been at you've been an entrepreneur. What else have you? What other fields, what whatever the industries have you focused on? And let's hear the back story. Sure.

[00:01:44] So I you know, I don't know if I would consider myself a very good serial entrepreneur, is is a good serial entrepreneur one and tries many failed things or has a few successful area. But yes, I get it.

[00:01:59] Yeah, I was definitely the former. So, you know, I started it, I think the age of 19, I got into finance and ended up having my own mortgage office by 21 and had, I think, significantly more success than maybe any 21 year old, but certainly me that I should have had. And, you know, that gave me a false sense of how easy it was to do things. And so I started chasing whatever ideas I could think of in all the different forms that they would come in. There was nothing spectacular, just a bunch of little ideas of why don't I try this? Or maybe this could be a successful business and definitely have the times. I think in my mid 20s where I kind of realized life is hard. Creating businesses is challenging. That was also around the time where the economy was crashing. So there didn't seem to be a lot of opportunity around in general. And then fast forward a few years starting to take regular jobs. I'm taking a job as a systems administrator because I'm a bit of a nerd. And I figured, why not? Why not pursue that in some area? And while I'm doing this, I'm just as passionate of a cannabis user. I likely need cannabis more because I'm settling in life. I'm not doing what gets me off. I'm kind of doing what would please the people around me. And at this time, I'm obsessed with this new technology hitting us New Yorkers in two thousand twelve, I believe. And that was what we were calling back then, wax pens.

[00:03:27] Now we just call them Bay. OK. Back then, there were wax pens. And that's because every every New Yorker was calling concentrated cannabis wax because it looks a bit waxy. Yeah. And during this time, I became obsessed. I was fully liberated. Now as a New Yorker. I could walk up and down the street consuming. This is the time before, you know, the popularity of e-cigarettes really, really hits. So I was invisible with my cannabis use for the first time ever. I didn't feel like the eyes were all on me or that I was offending people or God forbid, you know, lining myself up for for an arrest for public consumption. And so I was fully liberated and, you know, a pretty social person. So I started putting all of my friends on it saying, you gotta try this. We can now go anywhere. We can go out to the bar at night. We can go to the Met, we can go anywhere we want and consume exactly how we want to. And that's when I got dead with the bug that led to Costco. And a friend of mine one day asked me, hey, you're using these a whole lot. You've put every person we know onto these devices. Why don't you try making your own? And I knew nothing about product development. So all of my fears of jumping back into being a serial entrepreneur weren't really triggered because I don't know how hard this can be.

[00:04:44] And it seems like others are doing it. So why not give it a shot? Blissfully ignorant.

[00:04:49] Yes. I mean, truly, if I if I knew how hard this was going to be, I think there is little to no chance that I would have ran into the fire. But because I was a little bit ignorant and more hopeful potentially than I was ignorant. I started chasing it. And, you know, we roll with the punches and ended up where we are today.

[00:05:08] It's curious what you saw. What was the gap in the market that you saw? I mean, there were devices out there that could consume, you know, that concentrated waxes and things at the time. What was the deficiency that you saw that that prompted the need regression?

[00:05:22] So it's at that time a lot of the wax pens that were out there and they're specifically one company. I just don't imagine because I'm not going to say some nice things about them, but nothing does it. Yeah. The devices were made of plastic. They were very poorly made. They would actually melt in the vapor part. So you're inhaling melting plastic while you're consuming. You can stay very much in there. There weren't any options for controlling the temperature in any way. It was the simplest the technology really ever was at that point because it was so early. And so I started with a very simple thought. I just want to make something better to that. And I think that's how I like a lot of businesses start. I just want to make something better than today's options because I feel I deserve more and better mousetrap. Exactly. And so I started getting to work on it and like what what can I do to make it better? And I had no idea where to even begin with product development. So I I went to Ali Baba like I assume most people do when they're looking to manufacture anything in China. And I started the chase. I reached out to every factory. I would give them, you know, drawings on a napkin.

[00:06:36] I remember flying out to Portland to meet with this one guy who knew CAD so you could actually mock up the designs for me and stuff. And I'm I'm laughing because of how bad the CAD work was and the fact that I actually I jumped on a plane to Portland because when it could have all been done with e-mail. But as I started that chase and it ended up I got the product that was my first product that I had ever made. And it was called the perfect classic. And this this big order comes and I start checking it out and I start using it. And I have this moment as soon as I start using it, where I think to myself, this is better, certainly better build quality and certainly a better experience than the current market options, but not enough. I don't think that I can really disrupt this space with this kind of product. I think it would be a nice additional option. And what I ended up doing was I actually cleared out all of the inventory of that first purchase order and I went back to the drawing board. I wanted to make something that I could actually be excited about, something that I thought had a chance at destruction.

[00:07:44] When and where did it meet short? I mean, I'm curious, like what? When you actually got it, your hands started using it. Where were the where were the areas that you felt that you could do better?

[00:07:52] Well, that that story can be told by talking about what came next. I went back to the drawing board and started working on the tough go pro politico. Pro had three times the capacity to load concentrates into then any similar market option at the time, significantly more than what we were working on before the Petco classic. It had variable temperature control and this was the first time we had seen this in our space. It was really simple and crude. Just three different voltage settings that you can pick. The build quality was made of metal. We developed this tagline of no plastics, no glues, no fibers. We said of removing anything that we thought could be dangerous, only using the best materials, making it easier to load with a a much wider area to load your concentrates into. We just went for it and figuring that if this thing can better our lives, if this becomes something I will use every day, surely you can do that for other people. And that was the challenge. And there was really no end date for that challenge. I didn't have a plan. I didn't have a deadline by this date. It will be released. It was just as simple as what this is, is not disruptive enough. And I want to make something that can be. And it ended up taking me not very long when when all things are considered. I started that journey in January of 2014 and we release the puff go pro in October of 2014. That's pretty good. Not not up for person reference. Yeah. The puff GoPro ended up winning vaporizer of the year from high times, which is kind of what catapulted us into the world view.

[00:09:31] So how did that change things like once you had an award winning vaporizer? You know, product. What was the what was the change for you?

[00:09:38] I guess we didn't have to focus as much about we did have to focus on marketing as much. Like people heard of us. Now they knew who we were. We were the product that everybody wanted. It became really easy to sell. There was there was no amount. It felt like that we could purchase from China that the market would absorb immediately. But with that kind of demand and that kind of interest in those kind of accolades comes the copycats and the people that see an opportunity. Oh, this is what you want. We can give you that.

[00:10:11] And 30 percent of us.

[00:10:13] Yeah. And in some cases, more. In some cases, there's no marketing. And they're you know, they're paying hip hop artists to hold up a product that we design that eventually we ended up getting a design time four years after we stopped selling the product. But yeah, that's what that's the thing that came next and was probably the biggest lesson that I walked away with from. From what happened with high times, it wasn't catapulting into everybody seeing you. And everybody wants your product and now your name in the industry when last year you weren't. You're just, you know, one to two people in an apartment just working on a dream.

[00:10:51] What really resonated with me is how many people copied us and how negatively it affected me and how little resilience I showed through that. Yeah. So, yeah, that's that's kind of what happened after the high times thing. I think they announced it sometime around summer or beginning of summer and by September, October of 2015. That's it. Cats, cats out of the bag. This is the product. And if you want to make money in this space, copy this.

[00:11:19] Yeah. Did you feel I mean, did it change the kind of pressure you were under? Or just like how did how did it change your kind of product development?

[00:11:29] It's kind of self expectations that you had either yourself or the company in terms of getting your product out there.

[00:11:34] I just never been challenged like that before. You know, I'm I definitely consider myself to be an innovator and POSCO to be a company full of innovators. But that was the first time I truly innovated. And you're very protective over your first time. You feel that anything that can disrupt the success of your first innovation is the end of everything you worked on. That's it. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity. I hadn't yet realized that the job that I chose was innovation. That means that we're going to lead the pack and people are going to copy what we do. We don't win by fighting them on copying us. We win by continuing to innovate and always being the thought leader in the space. But that that lesson hadn't been learned yet. So I just feel like there are companies that and we're actually attacking mine saying that they're their product is better. You know, don't go to Puff Co. They're at it. Actually did what they said is going to go to puff coke. They're out of business. And they weren't actually they weren't actually wrong when they were saying that because. Right. Three months after we had gotten copied, we lost our entire supply chain. So we're the hottest product in this space. And now everybody is copying this hot, hottest product in that space because it's so easy to sell, speaks so directly to consumers. And the company that innovated it, owned it, won awards for it can't make anymore.

[00:12:58] And what happened there? What was the. This was just a supply chain meltdown or what was the.

[00:13:02] A little bit. So my my supply chain story is that I started on Alibaba. I did my best. Once they got time to shifting from the perfect classic to the GoPro, I had just started tapping my network of. OK. Clearly, I can't do things in China. I'm doing my best. Got it. I'm giving them a vision. It's not coming back to me in an innovative product. I need people that can communicate for me. And there is a very specific type of person that does this. And they're called a traitor. And a trader is somebody that will go and do all of your bidding in China for you.

[00:13:32] And they have relationships with the factories. They communicate with them. You pay them. You don't ask any questions. You get a product that they don't know who your factory is and you don't know anything that's going on. You have a guarantee that you will get what you pay for. And they didn't meet their deadlines. And they grew my business and they gave me the most popular product in this space. These traders. But because of a lack of transparency, we never knew it was actually going on. We are heavily trusting them. We never knew who our factory was, what their relationship was, what their needs are. And so we found that our factory was actually doing quite well in the E cigarette E space and they had no room left in their factory and they needed the line that they were using to make our products. They start making their own. So for them was, well, we're going to make more focusing on us than you and we're gonna give you 30 days to build whatever you want and buy. And we were like, OK, can you at least make like four months worth in 30 days? And the answer was no.

[00:14:35] January. Yeah.

[00:14:38] January comes in. We have the last of everything that we have. And luckily, I'm pretty frugal. We are bootstrapped, have never taken on investors and all the success that we had had in 2015. I had left all the money in the bank. I hadn't paid myself a ton at all. And I didn't know that times like those would come where I would need that money. But I'm glad that I was that frugal because our revenue just got cut off. Now we have no means of making money. I just hired my first engineer, who is now our head of product development and I think his first week, second week on Michael. Right. We all got to go to China. We have to figure this out. And that's exactly what we did. I went to China. I spent about a month there. The my engineer was there for, I think six weeks. And our. Operations at the time, Tom was there for three months and we were just hammering away at him anyway, literally just kind of walking up the factory doors and saying, can you build this for me?

[00:15:41] Know what Tom had done? Was he just to me that we turned to Google? Right. I'm having these problems. Somebody had to have written an article about how to get through this. And he ended up finding somebody that was very similar to how a trader operates, where they have a bunch of relationships in China. They can source stuff. They can get stuff made. But the difference between this person we have found and traders is transparency. This person would let us know every person we're working with would keep us involved in all contractual agreements, would let us know what the risks are.

[00:16:13] Prioritize us, be transparent about how he is making money and what he's charging us. There were no questions left after that. And so this frozen resource factories that he thought were capable of doing what we need and fit our criteria.

[00:16:27] And we just hit the pavement and would drive all over Shenzhen and then going to even deeper places in China for certain suppliers that can make ceramics or whatever different other parts that we're using. So, yeah, it was challenging the challenge to all of us.

[00:16:44] I love the challenge of being there and trying to figure out how to communicate with others. And it's it feels often like you're just playing charades everywhere you go. And I kind of I kind of love that. Think it's it's a fun challenge for me, but that's fun for about a week after a after a month you're spent. You miss Western culture. You miss the safety of people that look up at you and smile and don't look at you as different. And that's natural. Like that's you know, if you go to any place and you look at the odd man out. People are going to look at you.

[00:17:13] It definitely was a challenge for for all of us, especially on Tom, who feels like no longer you're there, the more it's going to affect you. And if you're not somebody who's been going to China for 20 years and you're out there for three months, this is really the longest you've been out there. And kind of one of the first couple times you've been out there really starts to take a toll on you. And then we were all for different reasons, having an extremely hard time. And those were some of the most dismal days that popped up.

[00:17:45] I'm curious, what what did you learn about yourself? You know, just generally and as a leader and as a manager, what were the things we were going to take away from that experience or the changes or realizations that you made?

[00:17:56] You know, I feel like at that time I less and still hadn't come. I was slowly acting. Yeah. Was still reacting. You're there. I still you know, I haven't figured out how to scale a business yet. And as I'm figuring out how to scale a business, I lose my supply chain. And I haven't figured out how to build a supply chain yet as I'm building out the supply chain. The employees are wearing thin and losing their minds.

[00:18:19] And so it's you never get this chance to reflect. You're just trying to keep every everyone and everything above water. My lessons came about a year and a half after that on another trip to China where we weren't beating ourselves up anymore to find a supply chain.

[00:18:38] We we had successfully made and scale the new product that we did after the GoPro to kind of keep innovating and advancing instead of competing with the copycats that had stabilized. We had a stable business, revenue was coming in and we were working on new stuff. And that new stuff was the perfect peak, which has just shot us into a different place that I'm I'm still struggling to to kind of understand how we got here. But while we were developing that, that's kind of when my lessons started coming, I got a chance to breathe. I went to China with Ivy are head of product development. I also was not the happiest at POSCO at that time after the POSCO plus. And in between the POSCO peak came a product called a Puff Go Pro 2 and we released the pro two because we discontinued the original pro. There was a cult following around it. People were bashing our new products, even though it was different, far more innovative, ended up becoming the most awarded VPN of all time political. Plus, even though it had all these great things about it, they missed the puff go pro. So I I made a fan favorite and when I made that fan favorite, I lost myself.

[00:19:50] It wasn't making things to any to innovate anymore. I wasn't pushing the limits of what was possible. I wasn't making something that I would use every day. I was just making something that shut people up to get them to stop asking them, leave me alone. GoPro. I love it. And that was one of my biggest pitfalls. We quickly realized that that's not why we do this. We don't do this because we want to make things to sell. We want to make things to use. And that was no longer the case. So now I'm depressed coming into work as late as 2 p.m. At times I am barely communicate. With the employees, I'm giving them little to no visibility into what I'm working on. What's coming next? How we're gonna grow the business. And while I was in China with with RV, I was kind of speaking to him, I guess, about the current state of POSCO and albeit asked me a bunch of questions and I'd answer them. And he was like, damn it. I had no idea you were working on all these things and you had so much in your view and under control. And I was like, yeah, I don't know why the employees don't believe in me. And that was the beginning. That was the moment that everything changed. And that's when he told me. Roger, it's not about intention. It's about perception.

[00:21:04] You could be the best leader in the world. But if you're not communicating that or earning that with your employees, does it matter if you're doing all the things that we want you to do? But we have no idea that you're doing them and we don't feel respected by you. It doesn't matter if you're doing all those things.

[00:21:21] It doesn't matter if you're if you're steering us towards greatness. And that was the first time that intention versus perception was burned into my head. And that's when the lesson started. When I started looking at myself as a potential cause of problems and as the potential reason that the roadblock that would get in the way of our growth, that's when it changed. When I finally started saying, am I the problem in all of this?

[00:21:48] Yeah, that's interesting. I think that's something we talk about a lot in leadership. And I'm particularly with the kind of CEOs and leadership teams, is that at some level you you have to assume complete responsibility, because if you don't assume complete responsibility, then then there's nothing you can do. We think, you know, if you don't see it as something that is your that is a function of your behavior and decisions, then that it does kind of doesn't matter because you can't control anything other than those things. So, I mean, I like that idea as it once you took that kind of radical accountability, a radical responsibility for everything, you know. It gives you a huge power. It's a huge it's a huge mindset shift. And it can be tough, but it also gives you a huge power to then do something about it.

[00:22:28] So, yes, I mean, grow. Growth is really challenging. And the most challenging part of growth is being comfortable. Negative feedback. If you're a really confident person, you're committed to growth and you want to be better today than you were yesterday and better tomorrow than you were today.

[00:22:44] You have to push for negative feedback. And that's what I do in 20, 19, almost weekly. I am pushing my employees to give me negative feedback and it's now we're a large company and I'm becoming more respected even than I was once. I'd gain the respect of everyone. My company, I'm becoming even more respected in that, and that means that it's harder to get people to tell you the uncomfortable truth. So now I have to strategize. All right. People clearly don't want to piss me off and not for fear of anything except for disappointment or saying the wrong thing. How do I get the truth out of them when they are afraid to give it to me? And those are, you know, my new set of challenges. And I have people here. That's not an issue. And they communicate with me very easily. But we have a very transparent company internally, and I see it as becoming a problem if people feel they can't communicate with me or potentially within a liter or Pepco. Yeah. Growth is really, really hard. And once you get comfortable with negative feedback, you've heard it. You process that. You've made incremental steps to get yourself better. You feel that that negative feedback has led to your growth and being the best version of yourself. Well, then it's on. Now you're pushing for negative feedback because without negative feedback, that means you're done growing and no growth focus person wants to be done. It's only a matter of what's next. That's that's what my lessons came. That's that's when my perspective as a leader and really as a human being started to change.

[00:24:12] Now, I love it. You know, you mentioned something in your story that I thought was interesting in this whole.

[00:24:17] Why were you doing the business and this sense of kind of creating product to satisfy people rather than grading product for yourself, I guess. How have you approached this idea of market or your kind of target customer or the persona or the person that you designed for? Is this do you have a strategy around this as a persona that you've developed, or is this really just, you know, driving towards innovation that is a more kind of internal an internal sensibility or internal passion?

[00:24:46] I would say definitely an internal sensibility. I mean, who you were? Who? Who do we make products for ourselves? It's why I think that there are so many areas where the products could be better. It could serve medical patients better. It can serve paraplegics better, meaning that it can be better than it is today. And we have some work to do, but we didn't necessarily make it for them. We made it for ourselves. The thought here was, can we make something that we would want to use more than our current dab rig and torch setup? Is there something that would allow us to enjoy concentrates more with other people who have heavily stigmatized the use of concentrates and. Can we make something that we just outright be easier to use and a better experience than what is currently and conventionally available? And we're not thinking of who are we going to sell it to? It was so challenging to convince Ivy, who has had a pretty decent career in product development before coming to Pepco, was really challenging to get him to develop his product. He cares about the company, does want to spend all this time working on something that could flop the market data. At the time, it showed that concentrate sales were shrinking in every area except for preloaded vape pens.

[00:26:02] The ones that have like the desolate in there never really gets you high. But that was the only growing sector of the space. And here we are making an innovative product for one of the fastest shrinking areas in cannabis. And so like there was nobody we were trying to appeal to. It was our pure belief that this is the best experience in consumption. Can we simplify and destigmatize? And if that answer is yes and we can show that there is potential here, we can go balls to the wall and invest every dollar we have in making this technology as great as it can be. And so, yeah, we just design for ourselves, which I think might ruffle some feathers because they're like, hey, what about me? I'm not like you and I would love to have a product like this. And to that person, I will say, give us a chance where we're hearing more voices in the development process. Not so we can sell more units, but so more people can have as great of an experience as we are. Yeah, but yeah, it's just just made for us by us.

[00:27:04] And what? You know, obviously you've done pretty tremendously.

[00:27:08] You've done a supply chain issues. I'm sure there are others would have been some of the other challenges that have come with the growth, either, you know, whether they be kind of practical, logistical or more kind of cultural and talent. What are the things that the hurdles you've had to overcome?

[00:27:21] I mean, kind of tied to the same thing, employee growth, communication, confidence. Confidence is everything. I mean, without it, you're you're useless. You don't run into the fire. That is product development without confidence. And if you do run into that fire, without confidence, you're going to panic and die. And that's what was happening to me for a while, is every little step forward I would take. I would question myself. The driving thought for the first three years of tough CO is it's only a matter of time until everybody figures out.

[00:27:50] I'm just a fucking idiot not knowing when he's doing whatsoever. And my confidence didn't come from me telling myself, you're not an idiot. You know a bunch of stuff. No, sir. I am in fact a fucking idiot, I promise you.

[00:28:03] But I know that there are areas where I do add value. I know that I have a decent eye for eight players and I have a pretty good time bending myself to give a player is a way to be the best version of themselves. I don't mind sacrificing a little bit to make it easier for them to get where they need to be to grow the company.

[00:28:24] But those are the two things that I have had to develop, and that's communication and confidence. Everything else is pretty easy. I think a few years back somebody gave me some pretty good advice and that was that a CEO has three jobs in the first one is vision.

[00:28:40] And man, I have more of that than I have time to execute it. The second is people making sure you have the right people to grow the business, and the third is making sure you have enough money in the bank to do what you need to do. So it feels like my job is relatively simple, challenging, but the challenges are great. The challenges are to think of ideas of new products to make and ways to reach more people. And just thinking of how to reach. In general, that's awesome. I hope I never have to stop doing that, people. That's pretty easy for me now as well. When you're confident and you can do what's right for other people because you believe in yourself because really easy to serve the people around you without feeling like you're folding on yourself.

[00:29:23] And then the other part is money. And that's never easy. Anyway, you chop it up. I have definitely struggled. We've made it here. We're in an amazing position now. There were multiple dark times where there was barely anything left and we kind of had it on the line. But that's you know, that's the struggle of growing and scaling a business that's doing well.

[00:29:44] And there continue to be self-funded. Or have you taken capital? What's your situation?

[00:29:48] Yeah, we're still self-funded, still bootstrapped, have no intention of taking on investment like that. That means that it'll be quite some time until I'm a rich man, but I'm rich in a different way.

[00:30:02] I haven't made that ugly.

[00:30:03] I was just going to say I haven't. Yeah, I have amazing employees have amazing relationships with my employees. I feel like I'm in the world's best master's program with POSCO and all the things they get to learn. Some of the people that I'm hiring. I feel like I haven't had professors as intelligent as they are. And so there's so many value there's so much value that I'm getting from Pepco that the chase really is how big can we get? And not for the sake of being big, for the sake of giving as many people the best experience possible as we can.

[00:30:34] Since The Jinx, the secret to, I guess, looking looking into the future, what are what are the big things or the big, you know, either kind of market or the industry or from your business point of view.

[00:30:44] What are the big things that are coming up for you in the next 12 to 24 months? Think things that are on the horizon that you're kind of strategizing around or kind of figuring out how to incorporate into your plans.

[00:30:54] So there are there are some secret projects and tough co that I can't talk about that. What's fairly certain will be coming out in about a year is our best guess. And then obviously we're you know, we're starting to get to work on the peak to peak has been such a successful product for us. And we all use it so much. It is the device I use most next to my phone. I actually use the peak more. I live 12 minutes from A for my home or rather, I work twelve minutes from my home. So I am only driving about 25 minutes a day. I am using my peak significantly more than that, more than I watch my TV, more than anything else. So we have our own desires for what the product could be and where we could iterated into and how it can be better. And then we have everything that we learned from the market of ways that people that are not like us want the product to behave. So that's that's what's next. But it's I'm excited to do the final reveal of what we've been working on our next project. By the time it's released, we will have been working on it for four years, four and a half years now. So we're doing our best mid patent filing and I'm certain the world will hear more about it very soon.

[00:32:05] Excellent. Roger, this has been a pleasure. Both both learning more about you and your journey and Puff Co and the products. Thank you so much for taking the time. If people find out more about what you do and the company and the products, what's the best way to get that information so you can go to puff co dot com for anything product related?

[00:32:22] If you want to see how our community functions, I would go to Instagram, which is where most of our community is, our pages Puffco on there as well. And I do a live broadcast almost every business day where I speak directly to the community, answer questions about the product and answer all types of other questions as well. Sometimes it can get weird, sometimes it can get inspirational. And my Instagram is jollyrogernyc.

[00:32:46] Ok, I'll make sure that I put those links in the show notes here so people can click there. Roger this. Thank you so much for taking the time. Yeah. Thank you, Bruce.

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